Peace or Sword?
Today is Saturday, October 18, 2008. I am sitting in my hotel room in Da Lat, Viet Nam, knowing I have to write a paper, and knowing that:
1. It will take lots of grace to do it.
2. It will be a hard-core, tough message that many will point to as proof that I’m “Anti-Church” and against the Body of Christ.
My hope and prayer is there will also be many who will be able to see, by the Spirit of the Lord, that this is not the case, and that I am presenting some vital truths here that must be faced and dealt with by believers who want to see and experience the Lord’s highest and best.
Jesus makes a number of sobering… even scary… statements in Matthew, Chapter 10. Among them are the following:
1. 14 “Whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”
2. 16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.”
3. 21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”
4. 24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.”
5. 27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”
6. 34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Most Christians believe that statements such as, “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves,” and, “Whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven,” and, “I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be those of his own household,” have a Christian-Unbeliever context. They even use the one about confessing Him as a proof-text for “witnessing” to unbelievers.
They see sheep (Christians) in the midst of wolves (Unbelievers); they see “confessing Him before men” as a call to witness; and they see having enemies in your own household as what happens when you become a believer and your family remains “unconverted”.
While there is some truth to those ideas, I am convinced that, if we look at Matthew 10 in context, and also look at it in light of numerous other scriptures, we will see the true meaning, and realize that the greatest enemy of God’s true purposes has always been religion, the “Church System”, with its incredible variety of forms, flavors and manifestations.
We will also see that, as God’s greatest enemy, it must be left behind.
Now, please understand I’m not talking about forsaking or abandoning God’s true people within the Churches, for there are many of them within the mixed multitude, but speaking and living truth before them, at great personal risk, in order that they might be saved from destruction, and that the Lord may be truly glorified.
Yes, there are many Christians who see that Matthew 10 has application to Christians versus the religious system of Israel, but I believe we must look beyond the Israel-Church conflict and see it in its End-Time context of Disciple-Church conflict, because scripture has a tendency to have latent, or future meaning, as well as its historical application.
Does Matthew, chapter 10 have meaning and application for believers today? I believe it does, for the following reasons:
1. Many Bible Scholars and Commentators see the End-Time Church, or remnant at least, portrayed in Matthew chapter 10.
2. The entire passage, which actually begins at Matthew 9:36, is within the context of Jesus seeing the (Covenant) people as sheep without a shepherd, and His command to go to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
The idea of God’s covenant-people being scattered, “lost sheep” resounds throughout scripture, and there are many Old-Covenant passages speaking of God regathering them in the last days.
We must get beyond looking at the “Church” and “Israel” as two distinct, separate entities. Yes, God will deal with natural Jews in the End Times, but we must see that “Israel” evolved into the New-Covenant community of believing Jews, and then wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in. Shortly afterward, the Temple and entire system of Jewish worship and sacrifice was utterly destroyed.
I am not speaking of “Replacement” theology. The Church didn’t replace Israel, but the scriptures clearly teach what I stated above. If we are true New-Covenant believers, we are a part of “Israel”; we are not part of a separate, distinct entity, called “the Church”, which has a separate purpose, agenda and destiny from “Israel”. That is a false belief system which has created all sorts of problems.
If you need convincing, read Ephesians 2:11-22 and Romans 11:13-25, two among many clear passages.
3. Jesus had His greatest conflicts, by far, with the established religious order, and He promised us the same. The religious leaders were the ones who called Him Beelzebub, not the heathen or the Romans.
Judaism has long ago ceased to be a serious problem for the Church, but the religious “Church” order has been alive and thriving for many a century, ever since good ole’ Emperor Constantine “converted” to Christianity, and brought the entire empire along with him.
We must keep in mind, also, that both Israel and the Church were founded and established by God Himself. They were both the true “Franchise”, so to speak, and scripture clearly shows both devolving into outward forms and practices, devoid of heart, which miss the mark of God’s true calling.
4. We see certain problems and issues being addressed to the early Churches, by Paul, Peter, James, Jude… and Jesus (in the book of Revelation) and we can be certain these issues have not gone away with the coming of the great, modern Theologians of our day and age. Among these issues are:
A. Easy-Believism which basically makes the faith “accepting” certain truths and then thinking it has all been signed, sealed and delivered. Centuries ago, certain sects within Christiandom believed that “it didn’t matter” what you did in your body; you had been “saved”, and this view of things is a major force today, in practice if not in word, although many do put it into word.
B. The desire for, and pursuit of money, possessions, prestige and pleasures, all in the name of God. It is even taken so far as the belief-system which says, “When the unbelievers see how rich, prosperous and happy we believers are, they’ll be jealous and come to Christ.” It’s incredible perversion, dressed up as sound, biblical teaching.
Remember, the Laodicean Church; the one Christ warns He will vomit out, says they are rich; increased with “stuff”; and have need of nothing.
C. Believers listening to what they want to hear, from leaders, “Savage Wolves” who love to have the pre-eminence. The people are lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness without it’s power.
Then there are things Jesus addresses to the Churches in Revelation, like the “deeds and doctrine of the Nicolaitans“; the doctrine of Balaam; Jezebel teaching God’s people to commit fornication and eat things sacrificed to idols, and more. What’s this all mean? Believers in today’s Churches certainly have no idea.
I will come back to these matters shortly, but let’s remember that Jude called believers to earnestly contend for the faith. If he had to do that way back then, why do we think it’s all basically alright now?
5. There is major and growing evidence that the “End-Time Religion” is certainly going to be “Christian”, not “New Age” or anything else. Surely, there will be New Age, pagan, demonic and other elements to it, but it will surely be “Church” and “Christian”, headed up by Rome and the Roman Church.
Many people think that “persecution” is coming to the Church at large. I don’t believe this. Satan is not worried about the “Church”, but about real disciples, those who prove the reality of the gospel and the truth that there is a King enthroned in the heavens, just like Daniel and his three friends did in Babylon. He laughs at all the rest.
Satan’s going to roll the whole Church thing up into one great big ball and run the whole enterprise. There’s strong evidence, also, that Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and others will be deceived and “welcomed” into the “Church” too.
The ones who will be hated, despised, persecuted and killed will be those who stand for God and His truth; who confess Him before men; who speak truth from the housetops; who don’t love their (Christian) family more than they love Him. This is what Jesus warned of so emphatically through Matthew chapter 10, and other places.
Getting back now to issues raised in point number 4C, above, let’s first look at the matter of “wolves”. Jesus said he was sending us like sheep among wolves.
There are only seven references to “wolves” in the entire Bible. I will paste six of them below:
Ezekiel 22: 23 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 24 “Son of man, say to her: ‘You are a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.’ 25 The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured people; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, to shed blood, to destroy people, and to get dishonest gain. 28 Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the LORD had not spoken.
Zephaniah 3: 1 Woe to her who is rebellious and polluted, To the oppressing city! 2 She has not obeyed His voice, She has not received correction; She has not trusted in the LORD, She has not drawn near to her God. 3 Her princes in her midst are roaring lions; Her judges are evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning. 4 Her prophets are insolent, treacherous people; Her priests have polluted the sanctuary, They have done violence to the law.
Matthew 7: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 10 (and Luke 10:3): 16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.
Acts 20: 25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
I don’t think there’s much need to add anything, other than, in my view, these passages describe the Churches and leadership as we know them today quite well, as “negative” and anti-Church as that may sound.
Here are a few questions; think about them:
Are the leaders and Pastors there for the people; or are the people there for them?
Whose needs are really being met? Who is really serving whom?
What would happen if the “Pastor” role, as we all know it, ceased?
If it ceased, would the “Church” function and carry on (or begin may be a better word) its God-given role?
Are Pastors and elders following the injunction of Ephesians 4:11-16; raising up the people to do the works of ministry, resulting in the edifying of the Body of Christ?
Do the people, for the most part, even want this? Or are they just busy with their own lives?
Why is the role of Pastor a salaried position, when scripture and history don’t support that?
Let’s move on now to the “deeds and doctrine of the Nicolaitans”.
I will copy and paste from a source which shows some good scholarship on this subject. I don’t know, at this point, or recommend, necessarily, any other teachings on the website. Here is the information (I have added some bold and underline highlighting):
The doctrine of the Nicolaitans was mentioned in the Apocalypse of John to the churches of Pergamos and Ephesus of the seven churches of Asia in Revelation 2. It is a symbolic name of a party that represents the hierarchy of a ruling class over the rest of the people, developing a pecking order of fleshly leadership. Jesus hates this and warns the people to repent or else “I will come upon you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.” The same warning illustration is applied to those that abused grace, which led to licentiousness from the example of Balaam, seducing Christians to fornication and tampering with idolatry. The individual overcomer is allowed to eat of the hidden manna and given a white stone with a new name written in it.
The Early church father Iranaeus, identified the Nicolaitans in his treatise “Against Heresies” in the second century as they who are an “offshoot of the knowledge which is falsely so-called,” mentioning that they “lead lives of unrestrained indulgence.” There is no absolute proof that the heretic Nicolas was the Deacon of the same name from Antioch of the seven deacons in the book of Acts, but Iranaeus supposed him to be so. Ignatius mentions the Nicolaitans also, so there was in fact a heretical group existing at that time. Nicolas the deacon was perhaps confused with another Nicolas, the bishop Nicolas of Samaria who was a heretic in the company of Simon Magus.
The root of the word Nicolaitans comes from Greek nikao, “to conquer or overcome”, and laos, which means “people” and which the word laity comes from. The two words together especially means the destruction of the people and refers to the earliest form of what we call a priestly order or clergy which later on in church history divided people and allowed for leadership other than those led by the spirit of the risen Lord. A good translation of Nicolaitan would be “those who prevail over the people.” This clerical system later developed into the papal hierarchy of priests and clergy lording over the flock. The Council of Trent stated, “If anyone shall say that there is not in the Catholic Church a hierarchy established by the divine ordination, consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers, let him be anathema.” It is not the question of the ministries but rather in the separation of them into a hierarchy over the people. This very idea was taken over by the Protestants with their own corruption of leadership roles and coverings. The Church of Ephesus was commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The wrong separation of the clergy from the laity is a great evil in God’s sight and He hates the lust for religious power over others. There is an ungodly spiritual authority in the Church today, which is nothing more than the prideful spirit of control, manipulation, domination and intimidation and a rebellion of the rightful authority of God.
Faithful believers who have put on Christ Jesus, are all God’s laity. Peter exhorted us to
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not for filthy lucre but of a ready mind. Neither as being lords over God’s heritage but being examples to the flock. And when the chief shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a crown of glory that fades not away.
Shepherds serve the sheep but the wolves that clothe themselves with so-called leadership and spiritual authority serve themselves, thinking that they serve God, in essence, this makes them false christs. Early church leaders were established as overseers, not a ruling hierarchy.
There is not much to add to this, other than this is precisely what we have today in the Churches, regardless of how open or participatory a church may seem to be.
It’s basically all about two classes; the ruling class; which does all or almost all the “ministry” and spends its time, for the most part, with each other or isolated and alone; and the laity-audience-tither class, which barely knows one another and has little or no idea about God’s true calling.
What about Balaam and Jezebel? It’s fairly simple:
You can’t curse a people who are blessed by the Lord, but you can get them to corrupt and defile themselves; if you can make them biblically illiterate and get them to believe and “accept” certain things, like:
It’s OK to partake of the things the world partakes of.
It’s alright to have idols of all kinds as long as they’re not “literal” idols of wood and stone.
It’s fine to make the Church a user-friendly mixed multitude where we won’t preach truth because it may “offend” people.
That God is a God of “love”, not one of vengeance or awesome holiness.
If I invite one or two people to “Revival Week”, I’ve done my “job”.
God hasn’t provided a way for sinners to be saints; only a way for wretched sinners to get to heaven.
If we preach and “know” sound doctrine, the Lord is well-pleased.
On and on and on.
Finally, why am I doing this? Why spend much time, energy and, in the near future, money, on writing these things; putting them out there; creating awareness and/or interest; and basically making myself a major nuisance, when I could be enjoying the beach or fishing or taking long walks in my old age?
Why?
Truthfully, I’m not sure, but here’s what I believe the Lord has planted in my heart:
Believers who have a desire to know, serve and follow the Lord are heading into major perilous times. We’re going to need one another. We will need each others love, encouragement, exhortation, fellowship, teachings and more. We’ll need to start communicating and networking.
We must truly begin living out genuine biblical discipleship, in relatively small pockets throughout the world, demonstrating the realities of the gospel. If this doesn’t happen, it’s all a bad joke.
We must pray and interceed as if the eternal destinies of multitudes are at stake, because they truly are.
We must be willing to stick our necks out and say very risky things to lots of people, believer and unbeliever, as well as risk looking like fools as we seek to do the works of Christ. I can say from personal experience that I have seen the hand of God move through me and others, as we were willing to lay it out there and take risks, and that moving of His hand did not come right away.
I will close by reminding my readers of the words of Jesus in Matthew, chapter 10:
27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Please leave comments; send emails; anything to help get us out of our isolation.





Gene,
Once again thanks for this read – - not that I necessarily enjoy reading of this, but it does offer me some peace in knowing that I’m not alone with these thoughts, that can only be explained by the moving of our Father.
As I read through The Tyranny of Self again – and the comment from flee the wrath – I just want to scream, “What do I do!?” and “How do I live out this walk of being a disciple of Christ in all truth?!”
I cannot help but feel overwhelmed! I want to be in His will in all things – but feel lost in how to achieve it. How do I love like Him? How do I hate like Him? How do I live in His will?
Yes, I encourage others, such as yourself – - “Stay in God’s word He will guide”…and I believe it – BUT I cannot seem to apply it to myself and have it provide rest a lot of the time – which of course leaves me feeling like I am doing something wrong – I cannot be doing this right and have all these questions, fears, and doubts….am I being fooled? This thought scares me.
“Cast me not away from Your presence, and take not Your Holy Spirit from me” Psalm 51:11 – - this is my cry!
I do not want my desire to please the Lord turn into what feels at times, self-pity – - I need to rid myself of all self …what a painful, but necessary cultivation process.
Gene, I am encouraged by your boldness for Christ – and your honesty about your doubts.
Sherry
Brother Gene, Brother Tim, sister Sherry, sister Cris. God is busy working in you all, don’t you see what is happening here? He has put a hunger so great in you for His truth and His truth in living your life in Him that it almost splits you in two – and it has to. One has to go. He will not rest until it is accomplished in you. The road is very narrow. Very narrow.
Gene I have written much to you in private and will share this with you all here now. For 3 years, I have walked pretty much alone in this life with the Lord. Can you believe that I used to think I was almost alone in this walk? I was so naieve. I used to get so desperate to have the Lord connect me with others and here He is joining up hearts that are so wanting Him!
I have gone through unutterable agony in searching out God and what He wanted from me. I nearly lost everything to ‘let’ God break me. I want all that He has for me – not worldly things and stuff – simply Him.
Gene, I have read your posting and agree absolutely with all you have written. I agree that perilous times are ahead for the simple follower of Jesus Christ, who preach Him crucified,Who preach simply and truthfully the whole Gospel. Who wont be sucked in to the great ‘ lets-all-hold-hands-we all-serve-the-same-god’ heresy.
It will cost us to stand for Jesus, together – I have seen this already.
I also believe that the one-world church is well on her way to going where Satan wants. As is the timeline of God for this world. I agree with all you write that the mess the church is currently in and which can only get worse. I believe that the other religions will be seduced into joining in.
I also believe that Jesus Christ has His true children and that we know His voice as He knows ours and that we can all learn from eachother and collectively from Him. We are a unit in Him whether we want it or not.
Tim – If I may answer to you here in response to your comment at the Tyranny of Self posting, as it also ties in with this one, – living our lives out for Him is not so much about what do we do, it is more about how much we are moved by God to let go of everything as we have ever known it to be, to allow Him to unlearn us of everything we have ever understood about Him and allow Him to re-learn us. It is understanding in our spirit that it is God who does all this in us. This takes pain and time and I have discovered that God is never in a rush. Jesus was never, ever in a rush. Ask the Lord to show you what I truly am saying here, and ask Him to show you how to live with Him. Ask Him!
We are not to pull away from the unlearning no matter how painful or agonising it is. Welcome it and know that the only way He can live through us is when we die to ourselves. Two entities cannot live in me or you. Christ has to have all.
God wants all of us. He will use us as we are all willing vessels, but He will use us in His ways which might be so insignificant in our own eyes. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts not as ours.
I am sorry if what I am trying to share might to some, sound all over the place. I know with absolute certainty that Jesus has to become the very breath you breathe, but He has to take you to that place of being able to live it out. I don’t want to come across sounding arrogant or proud or anything like this and if this is how you read it then there is nothing I can do to change this – it is intense passion for you as brothers and sisters and I can hear your hearts and so want to connect in Him with you. God will have His way irrespective of us.
Gene count me as part of what God is doing in all our lives.
Gene you are welcome to post this or remove it – I don’t mind either way.
Sorry, if I may say one last thing – We were not intended to fit into the way the world does church – even if it is under the guise of ‘christian’. We simply cannot and never will fit into the picture. Jesus made this very clear to us simply by the way He wants us to live with Him.
Bless you
I don’t need to make much of a comment here, as I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with everything that’s been said.
When I meet with a group of random believers in my own community under the banner of United in Jesus, there is one faithful brother who has a favourite saying that is surprisingly proving to be extremely true:
“The faithful remnant is far smaller than any of us realise!”
God bless you Gene, you truly do have a heart ablaze for the Lord, and whilst I know it pains you at times to the point of distraction, with all my heart I believe it to be for a godly purpose.
Blessings,
John.
The isolation is very thick, isn’t it? I used to think that the Christain Church would ultimately be the one world religion of the antichrist, after having been perverted. Once I learned about the Shiite end-times belief, I came to see an amazing similarity between what they expected of their own Twelfth Imam and what we expected of the antichrist. It was a dead match. However, I will concede that, by their own account, there will be a distinctly pseudo-Christian element to it. Specifically, they expect Christ to return to lead Christians to faith in the Twelfth Imam.
I agree that many forms of the Christian faith have been dominated by leaders who seek control of the people, and I agree that this is wrong. However, I see the value of organized religion as a necessary means for keeping congregations together. The body of Christ needs this order.
Are many Christians straying? Yes.
Have they gotten lazy and complacent? I’ll get back to you in a moment. My favorite television show just came on.
–M. Patterson–
God is faithful and he will show us his ways. I can make myself sick over thinking of what is to come! I pray for my people and that God would show us mercy and love. Please change our hearts and renew our minds. You are our refuge and strong tower and our hope is in you all day long! We do need to network and perform as the body of Christ with the love of God in our hearts. We are badly damaged goods but we have a Savior and he will rescue us amen!
Thank you all for your comments so far. I do believe the Lord is moving and working in our lives and it will be interesting (lousy word) to see how He brings His purposes and plans together.
Jessie: WHY would I even think of removing your comment? You can rant or ramble all you want; it’s wonderful stuff, and you are a serious blessing.
Sherry: Your fellowship and encouragement, here on the blog and on a personal level, mean so much to me. The only thing I’d add to what Jessie said is i believe we have to be willing to seek and find at least one other to walk this out with.
John: What can I say to you that I haven’t said already? If it weren’t for YOU, I’d surely be lookin into some Nursing Homes.
Carol: Don’t make yourself sick, but do keep thinking and praying. Thanks for drawing our attention back to an awesome Savior.
Tim (fleethewrath): You haven’t posted a comment yet, but I love ya, mate. You really challenge me.
M. Patterson: nonaeroterraqueous??? I’m not gonna touch that, but good to see you still around.
Do we need organized religion to keep the people of God together; or our common love for Him and common vision fueled by His word?
Hope your TV show was good. Did you doze off? You never did get back
I am so glad you commented on my blog so that I could find you and your blog! I agree with everything that you wrote! Everything makes so much sense now!!! Funny how a few months ago I started praying for truth, my exact words, “Lord let me see what you see, I want truth! Let me know what I need to know. I dont’ know anything right now pls guide me” From there, everything cracked up for me, within weeks I was out of the church and more discoveries keep coming. I just pray that I can do what needs to be done and use what I know properly!
I am excited I found your blog!!!
Where do I go from here and what do I do? I keep asking for guidance and wisdom! Thanks for your blog, I am going to read through it!
Geno, I have prayed and I have wept this morning as I ponder this topic with a heavy heart. I don’t even know if there is a right or wrong answer to the question you are asking. I’m not sure things are so clear, so black and white but here is what I felt lead to write:
What is the motivation for anything we do?
What motivates us to speak out about the wrongs being committed amongst the body.
Am I simply desiring to prove one right and another wrong? Is this just another act of self or is this the leading of the Holy Spirit. I must be sure, for one is death and the other is life.
There is something I have seen which is a very wicked thing. A man can take scripture and use it to argue virtually any cause he should desire. Even that Christ Himself was just a man. Have you also seen this truth?
Is there a point at which truth no longer becomes truth, at the point at which it stumbles men into unrighteousness pride and division!
What is truth?
And now being granted such grace to hear the truth what am I to do with it?
Do I wield it around as a sword, to slay it’s opponents, or is there a greater truth beyond the one my carnal mind desires to grasp.
“No greater love have any man than this, that He who would lay His life down for His friends”
Whatever you Geno, or I choose to do, may it be in love with all longsuffering, as Christ Himself suffered for those whom He once considered His enemies.
Truth without love is no truth at all. Actions based on carnal desires bring death, but the Spirit is Life. May we be really, really sure that we know what we are doing as we walk this thing out together.
I do Luv you buddy
Tim,
It’s good you look upon these issues with fear and trembling. That’s how we must approach these matters. If not, we’re on very dangerous ground.
I can’t speak for you, but I have no desire to win debates, or even have them. I want there to be groups of people living out “the real thing”, and I want to be a part of that, because I’ve tasted of it, and I know that “Church” doesn’t have those realities. I also want the Lord to be pleased and glorified.
Certainly, my motivations, and yours, are not perfect in love and purity; but aside from Jesus, whose were?
Let me suggest, from personal experience, what you may be wrestling with.
I’ve been seeing these issues within the Body of Christ for many years, and it’s only very recently that I’m really laying it on the line.
Why just very recently?
I believe it is mainly because I was concerned (afraid may be a better word), with how people would look at ME and think of ME. I didn’t want to deal with all the negativity I knew would come.
People generally don’t LIKE people with prophetic insights, and people who have prophetic vision don’t want to be putting it out there. They try to weasel out of it. If they really WANT to be putting it out there, it’s likely they don’t really have prophetic insight.
You said:
Is this just another act of self or is this the leading of the Holy Spirit. I must be sure, for one is death and the other is life.
Let me say that there are times when the leading of the Holy Spirit is life, but it sure FEELS like death. Ask Jesus, Paul, Jeremiah, John the baptist and many others.
Yes, Tim, I agree; may what we do be in love with all long suffering. If not, we are only a clanging noise.
I don’t have prophetic gifting but recently I think God bestowed discernment upon me.. HOw it happened I don’t know. Last night my husband asked, ‘were we blind or was the church suddenly moving in the wrong direction?” I answered my husband quite bluntly, “We were Blind!”
It is only through the grace of God and Boy oh boy do I lean on that grace and his guidance because honestly, I don’t know anything in my own strength. I am a fool! Without Christ, I am a sheer and utter fool that has no compass and no direction.
I only recently realised that I have nothing to offer God. I come before him with nothing but myself, which is terribly little infact, it is nothing!. Oh, Jesus I need you to help me Big time because every step I take is vitally important and every move I make, may it be what God wants me to do!
“Do we need organized religion to keep the people of God together; or our common love for Him and common vision fueled by His word?
Hope your TV show was good. Did you doze off? You never did get back”
Neither did Jesus, but I’m still waiting.
Well, the idea of doing away with organized religion has been tried before, a few times. Don’t think that you’re the first to come up with the idea. What ultimately happens is simple enough: someone comes along who thinks he has all the answers, some of which are clearly wrong. Okay, well, he can be denounced, right? Not if he starts a congregation based on his ideas, using the name of your not-organized Christianity. It always happens. You find that your gathering of believers has an inconsistent ideology, and some people have more influence than others, either because they speak louder, or more persuasively, or they just have really nice hair. You know that this person is wrong, but he claims to be part of your group, and you have no way to identify yourself otherwise, either by established precepts or organizational rights. Then, the only solution is to become just another denomination, whereby you reserve the right to tell him to stop calling his congregation one of yours and stop taking unsuspecting members from your own flock.
Don’t want a pastor to dominate the group? Want it to be led by the congregation? It’s been done. Problem is, without a leader, nothing gets done. You find that only a handful of people are willing to get up there on any given Sunday and preach. Even fewer are willing to make the un-glamorous things happen, like janitorial and secretarial tasks. Pretty soon, you’ve either got an established leadership of some sort, or your church has ceased to exist. It’s happened.
“…or our common love for Him and common vision fueled by His word?”
Good luck on that. Having worked on a church board under a corrupt pastor, I can tell you that you are right and you are wrong. Common vision is never common. Try getting people to all agree on specifics, and they will all have their own slightly different objectives, and your mission statement becomes a multi-headed hydra. To form any cohesion, you need leadership. Do you want things to run smoothly? If you do, then you need to be organized, meaning that everyone can’t just be doing whatever they feel like doing. A mission with any degree of complication, one that actually accomplishes something, one that is worth doing, needs to be well thought-out and organized. This requires leadership.
Yes, leaders tend to be corrupt. I don’t know what to say about it, but you do need leaders, and you do need to be organized.
Incidentally, the reason I couldn’t get back to you any sooner than this is because my filtered internet service suddenly decided to block WordPress as having unsafe content.
The Lord Jesus Christ bless you for this blog! In a nutshell, the Lord is at work in our family, showing us about the 501C3 church whore (churches muzzled willingly by the US IRS) and that we must come out from among them and be separate. The thing is, where do we go? Though, I do believe the Lord has told me that he will bring people to us to fellowship with, this is all so foreign to me, and I find it hard to articulate. It all feels like an unreal thing. Maybe that’s because we are still in the church whore system and are suffering spiritual bondage due to it. Does this sound crazy or what? Anyhow, I did a search for “falling away” because I believe we are witnessing that in our church. And I found this blog. It is amazing to me to see others who seem to be saying to “get out of these churches” as I feel convicted to do. I am encouraged.
I also have a link to share which has been used of God to open my eyes to this matter as well as the issue of Bible versions. This person is a watchman who has come out from the corporate system and does very needed news updates, Bible studies, reproves the unfruitful works of darkness while contending for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=drscottjohnson
Another who has a church which is not entangled with the government and is not a corporation is Michael Slattery of Freedom Baptist in Fl and his sermons are on sermonaudio.com too.
Some scriptures that spoke to me about the 501C3 incorporated churches which and are willing partners with the state rather than under the Lordship of Jesus Christ:
Jer 5:30-31,Isaiah 30:2, 42:6-8, Isa 56:7-16, Isa 57: 1-14,Jn 10:16,Col 2:9-10, Luke 6:22, 2 Cor 6:14-18,Gal 5:1, 1 Tim 6, Ps 118:9, 2 Sam 22:31, 2 Pt 2:18-20, Rev 18:3-5 KJV.
Tylah,
You asked, “Does this sound crazy or what?” Well, if you sound crazy, then I’ve been nuts for a long time.
I believe the Lord is opening a lot of eyes and wanting to open many more.
Feel free to visit often; read pages and posts; make comments or email me.
We’re in this together.
You said it all here “Satan’s going to roll the whole Church thing up into one great big ball and run the whole enterprise.”
The dark ages were the result of the church becoming the harlot of the Constantine rule. The RCC incorporated all the native religions into her own practices in order to deceive the world…literally.
I believe it is even now beginning as I see so many so-called Christians rejoicing over the “light breaking through darkness” because of the election results here in America. They are exulting in a man who promises change and to work to bring everyone together. Doctrine and morality do not matter. Getting along is what matters to many and that is their goal.
I really appreciate your sound interpretation of the Word and events of the day. God bless and remember “the Lord knows those that are His”!
Prodigal Knot,
Thanks for your comments and insights here, and on “Pre-Trib Rapture? Unconditional Security?”
Seems like we kinda see some stuff in the same way.
I’ll swing by your blog soon. I’ve been really swamped lately, but I’d like to see what your sharing there.
Gene
Gene I hope I’m doing this correctly it’s my first time on a “blog”. Just looking at the Scripture Matthew 10 this was the very Word that the Lord gave me to go back to a church we had recently left but who now had a new pastor. My husband and I knew that we would find a “snake” and a “dove” there and we did. We were eventually worked out from their fellowship with the words AGAIN but you know what we preach and teach and yet you came here again. The dove was the pastor who is a sweetheart and I gave him a flipfile full of teaching on Israel and Replacement Theology and then he was transferred to another church. The “snake” believes in British Israelism and it was through him and his wife that we were worked out of the fellowship. When we asked the Lord for direction after it had become so uncomfortable he directed us to the rest of that scripture which read “when they don’t accept you leave and wipe the dust off your feet” which we did and since then they are contually asking when we will be back and we tell them Never! And God said so…
So this is proof that this was meant for the “Church” and not unbelievers as we are living proof of that.
God bless and I love your site by the way.
Lucile,
Yep… you did it just fine.
Thanks for stopping by and making some enlightening comments. Come around often, read some stuff, make comments, bring your friends along.
This blog is fairly new but some good networking is starting to happen.
I am in such a church spoken of in Matthew 10 and I have had these verses coming to mind for quite a while the “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light” and “I did not come to bring peace but a sword” and in an effort to find the passage the first thing I came to was your article. Thank you. I have been trying to fight the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, what I believed to be a “spirit of control” in this church for a year now. I’ll probably be formally kicked out again in about 9 hours, but I know that God called me to this church and if it is time to go I will “shake off the dust from [my] feet” in good conscience because of what you have shared.