Discipleship/Apostasy 2
Problem: The organized, institutional Church… what it is and what it does… is far from the Lord’s will and purposes for His people. Its varied programs, projects, services, “fellowship”, leadership model, and basically everything about what it is and does is way off-target by biblical standards. It does not understand nor practice the mind, will or ways of the Lord.
This assessment includes Mainline Churches (Baptists, Lutherans, etc.), Charismatic or Pentecostal Churches, Apostles/Prophets-led Churches, Churches that are into gold-dust falling or people twitchin’ and shakin’, and even the House or Home-Churches.
Solution: It is the responsibility of all believers to understand and follow the ways of the Lord laid down for us in the scriptures, as also modeled for us by the apostolic Church in the scriptures and other Churches in history. We must not and cannot legitimately plead ignorance or pass the responsibility off on the “leaders”, in spite of the fact that many leaders encourage believers to take just such a position by saying things like, “You must submit to and obey your leaders. If they are wrong God will deal with them; but you are required to submit to them.”
If the Church, indeed, is not walking in and living out God’s ways or truth, each believer has a responsibility to diligently pursue, along with other believers, the godly solution to these issues, and the restoration of the Body of Christ to its God-given purpose and function. This is an extremely important matter; ignore it or brush it aside at your own risk.
If I have not already lost you, and you did not have a very negative inward response to those statements; read on. If you did have that negative reaction, and believe I am wrong in my assessment, there is probably no point at all in reading any further.
I will not use a lot of scripture quotations to back up my views in this writing. The truth of what I say should be apparent to any believer who has a reasonable understanding of the Word, and has any genuine desire to know, serve and follow our Lord.
The first points I want to establish, although they are not the main points of this writing, are these:
* Leaders have been known, down through the entire history of God’s people, to lead them astray and into error; even into destruction. The people and the leaders both bear responsibility for this tragic reality. This problem is both an Old Testament and a New Testament reality.
* There has been a consistent tendency, down through the ages, for God’s people to not take God and His word seriously. Rather, they do things their own way and convince themselves they are walking with God in His ways.
* God’s people tend to fall into a casualness and familiarity with Him, instead of having a holy reverence, and can’t see their sin.
I want to establish these truths because so many people put far too much trust in their leaders, pastors and elders; that they are feeding and leading them aright, and that the leaders know and understand God’s good and right way. Also, I want to establish the incredible seriousness of knowing and heeding God’s word and not falling into familiarity with Him.
Carefully read through the following scriptures, and these points should become clear:
Isaiah 3: 10-12: 10 “Say to the righteous that it shall be well with them, For they shall eat the fruit of their doings. 11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, For the reward of his hands shall be given him. 12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths.”
Isaiah 5: 13-24: 13 Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge; Their honorable men are famished, And their multitude dried up with thirst. 14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, and he who is jubilant, shall descend into it. 15 People shall be brought down, Each man shall be humbled, And the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled. 16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness. 17 Then the lambs shall feed in their pasture, And in the waste places of the fat ones strangers shall eat. 18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity, And sin as if with a cart rope; 19 That say, “Let Him make speed and hasten His work, That we may see it; And let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, That we may know it.” 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, 23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man! 24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, And the flame consumes the chaff, So their root will be as rottenness, And their blossom will ascend like dust; because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 9: 13-16: 13 For the people do not turn to Him who strikes them, Nor do they seek the LORD of hosts. 14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel, Palm branch and bulrush in one day. 15 The elder and honorable, he is the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err, And those who are led by them are destroyed.
Isaiah 58: 1-2: 1 “Cry aloud, spare not; Lift up your voice like a trumpet; Tell My people their transgression, And the house of Jacob their sins. 2 Yet they seek Me daily, And delight to know My ways, As a nation that did righteousness, And did not forsake the ordinance of their God.
Jeremiah 3: 30-31 (Amplified): 30 An appalling and horrible thing [bringing desolation and destruction] has come to pass in the land: 31The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests exercise rule at their own hands and by means of the prophets. And My people love to have it so! But what will you do when the end comes?
Jeremiah 23: 16-22, 25-32: 16 Thus says the LORD of hosts: “ Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; They speak a vision of their own heart, Not from the mouth of the LORD. 17 They continually say to those who despise Me, ‘ The LORD has said, “You shall have peace”’; And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say, ‘ No evil shall come upon you.’” 18 For who has stood in the counsel of the LORD, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it? 19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD has gone forth in fury— A violent whirlwind! It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly. 21 “ I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 But if they had stood in My counsel, And had caused My people to hear My words, Then they would have turned them from their evil way And from the evil of their doings.
25 “I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’ 26 How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart, 27 who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal. 28 “ The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?” says the LORD. 29 “ Is not My word like a fire?” says the LORD, “ And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? 30 “Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who steal My words every one from his neighbor. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who use their tongues and say, ‘He says.’ 32 Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the LORD, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the LORD.
Acts 20:25-31: 25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
2 Timothy 3: 1-7: 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 4: 1-4: 1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
These issues have been going on for a very long time in God’s household, Old and New Covenant. If you cannot or will not see this, and be brought to a place of sorrow, repentance and seeing the need for radical change by the Spirit of God, there’s not much I can say to you.
Having established some realities about leadership among God’s people; the tendency of God’s people to despise His word; and their familiarity with Him and failure to see their sinfulness, I will proceed to the main points of this paper.
Jesus, the Son of God, did not come to replace one set of religious practices with another, but, if we look upon the Church-scene today, we would have to conclude that He did come for just such a purpose, because that’s exactly what we see. We simply see a new set of basically vain, empty religious practices which have little or no real impact upon the lives of the believers, and little or no impact upon the culture or people around them, despite the massive numbers and pervasive presence of “believers” in society.
Instead, He came to fulfill His Father’s will, purposes and agenda for mankind and for all of creation. He came to restore us back to right relationship with the Father, and to open the way for His people to be and do according to God’s thought. He came so that He, Jesus, might be preeminent in all things and be all-in-all; that He might be our very life, the firstborn among many brethren, the head of a new race of man. He came in order to create a people of God who are fully and without reservation sold out to His and His Father’s agenda, even if it costs them their very lives. He came that there would be a people who express (not imitate) the very life, nature and ways of God in a sick, lost and dying world; a world that would despise them. He came to establish an eternal Kingdom of righteousness on this earth; its final kingdom.
Any thoughtful reading of the scriptures will confirm the truth of those statements.
When He walked this earth, He sought, even demanded, all-out, total commitment. The cost was very high, but this was the basic prerequisite. Those who didn’t have this utter commitment to Him and His agenda were rejected or even driven away; even sincere seekers like the rich, young ruler. He wasn’t looking for “believers”, because even the demons believe, but for disciples; those who would obey and follow. He said things like, “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’, and you don’t do what I say?”
His first order of business was to redeem us from sin and purchase us for Himself. I’m talking about ownership; complete possession of all we are and all we have, to serve His interests and agenda, to express Him in this world.
We need to grasp this. He didn’t come primarily to “save” us and to get us to heaven, but that we might become an important part in fulfilling God’s purposes and agenda from all eternity; that we might be conformed to His image and likeness; that God might be honored, praised and exalted through endless ages because of His awesome power and ability to radically transform wretched, sinful men into the glorious image of His Son, and to bring all things into subjection to the rule of Christ.
Believers have lost the vision of these things and generally can’t see past their own, personal “salvation” and doing a few prescribed things at certain times and places. This is why genuine, biblical evangelism and mission are practically non-existent in our Church-world today, and why Church is so boring, if you’re willing to acknowledge that, as I certainly am.
As Christians, we have no “rights”, and should have no demands or expectations of “good” things. I’m not saying we’ll receive no good things; we will. But people receiving good and pleasant benefits is not His primary thought. We must purge this idea, that He came so that we might receive good and pleasant things, from our thinking.
But redeeming men from sin is only the beginning; not the beginning, middle and end as we’ve made it in our day and age. After that, He fully intends and has provided the way for the following:
* To make His people progressively more free from sin by uniting them to Himself in death, burial and resurrection. In our actual, everyday ways and actions, we should be looking, sounding and being more and more as He was in this world, because we have died in Him and His life has been grafted into us. Being like Him is given as the reason for confidence for believers on judgment day in 1 John 4:17, not praying a prayer or going down the aisle for an altar-call.
* For believers to have deep, genuine family-type relationships with one another (rather than our typical shallow, phony ones), and truly come to know and love one another despite their many flaws, as they strive together for the faith of the gospel.
* For believers, individually and corporately, to be growing more and more into the Lord’s likeness and image through the service and teaching of servant-leaders, who selflessly live and demonstrate the realities of “the way” before their eyes, and call them to do the same (Paul said he travailed in birth pains until “Christ be formed” in the believers). There should be a number of such people in their midst, who do it out of deep love for the Lord, not for a salary and perks, and who will not fear losing their job when they live and speak truth. The believers should know these leaders very well, and the leaders should know them even better.
* For His people to walk in love, anointing and power, not through some bogus “impartation” by some “prophet”, but through ongoing repentance and obedience to truth. When the world looks upon true believers, they should be seeing the love, mercy, grace and power of the King of Kings, not hyped-up fanatics pursuing “prosperity” and so-called power without any genuine brokenness or repentance; or dead Church-attendees.
* The enabling of His people to suffer with Him with grace, love and endurance, as they reach out to a lost and dying generation, most of whom will hate them. They will also suffer as they seek to reach Christians with sound biblical understanding of God’s will, purposes and ways; being reviled and accused by their own brethren.
So, biblical Christians should be a people who look, sound and act radically different than others, through the power of the very life of God moving and working in their midst. For them, life should be a daily adventure of walking with God, and seeing Him move and work through them and among them.
Unbelievers, when they look upon believers, should see things that shake them to the core, and cause them to either despise the believers, or ask what they have to do to have what they have.
They should see genuine love, mercy, forgiveness, long-suffering, gentleness, kindness, godliness, unity, and power; and when I speak of power, I mean power to bring healing or deliverance from demons, and supernatural knowledge that will cut them to the heart, and more. Jesus did these things; the apostolic Church did them. Why aren’t we (and please don’t tell me that your Church is)?
What unbelievers see today in the Churches is, frankly and sadly, something quite different.
What they see for the most part are people who basically live and act just like they do, but can spout religious jargon and paste a phony smile on their faces; people who don’t have real relationships with each other; who point dirty, accusing fingers at them; who “go to Church” once or twice a week but are pursuing their own agendas in life just like everyone else; people who backbite and have “splits” at a moment’s notice; who lose their tempers and cheat on their taxes; whose kids are out of control; who run from Church to Church seeking to find exactly what suits them; who flock after the latest and greatest “prophet” or “apostle”, seeking after their next spiritual high; who can quote an occasional canned scripture verse, but don’t know the mind or counsel of the Lord; who will run from any kind of suffering or reproach for the Lord’s sake.
Be honest. Do you see the realities of the five points listed above in the Churches? In your Church? Do you see progressive freedom from sin? Deep, abiding relationships in which people truly love and know each other? Leaders who model and lead the people into deeper Christ-likeness? Believers walking in love, anointing and power toward the world? Disciples willing and able, by grace, to suffer with and for the Lord? Do you see these realities?
Oh, many people will say, “Yes! Our Church really has it goin’ on. You should come and see!” Many people have made such statements to me, despite the fact that statistically, and by every method of measurement, Christians are basically no different than their unbelieving friends, neighbors or co-workers.
The sad fact is, though, that they are deluded. I won’t try and prove or argue that; but, surely they are deluded. If you’re one of those many who believe that your Church is really doin’ it, and your pastor really knows the Word, I wish you the best, and pray your eyes will be opened. The saddest thing is how many people will acknowledge the truth of my views about the Church, but insist that it doesn’t apply to their Church.
So, the problem is that our modern Churches are far, far off the mark in relation to the mind of God, and in relation to what He is after in His people, and this mess can’t be fixed or “reformed”; it must be abandoned, because it never aligned with God’s pattern and it never will. It may line up with Rome’s pattern, or Luther’s, or Calvin’s, or with C. Peter Wagner’s, but not with God’s.
It was never God’s pattern for people to file into a “Church” building; quietly sit looking at the back of another believer’s head; sit, rise and sing at the leading of a “leader”; listen endlessly to the “head-pastor’s” sermons; say, “How you doin’, brother?” to people you barely know; listen to boring, “special” songs sung by lay-people; have “fellowship” once a week in a care-and-share group which is only a mini Church service; never getting down and dirty with other believers; never venturing forth in love and power as the body of Christ (except in projects like “feeding the hungry”); never ministering except in the usual ways, like greeting, ushering and teaching Sunday-school; never seeing captives set free or healed by God’s hand working through them; always looked upon as phonies and hypocrites; striving after bigger and better things of the world just like everyone else; struggling with all the same issues and stuff as the unbelievers.
The Word says that God is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all we can ask or even think, according to the power at work in us. It says believers are to be filled, corporately, with all the fullness of God. Is the pattern I described above it? Is that His highest and best?
And please don’t tell me the Charismatic/Pentecostal Churches are different. They’re not, and they are so full of error and heresy, it’s astounding.
And please don’t tell me the House-Churches are so different. I’ve been around a number of them, and they’re not, and most Home-Church “leaders” I’ve been around are more egotistical and power-mad than their institutional counterparts.
The solution is for believers who love the Lord in truth, not just in word, to rise up and say, “ Whatever it takes; whatever the cost; we will come into line with God’s model and agenda. We will no longer settle for or tolerate this poor, pathetic, man-made substitute. The glory and honor of the Lord is for too important for us to settle for this. God help us and be merciful to us; we will surely need it.”
They will start coming together, in groups of anywhere between two and fifteen committed believers, to seriously seek the mind, will and way of the Lord. They will get on their faces and repent, for the sins and disobedience of the Church, and for their own personal sin and disobedience. They will start laying aside a lot of unnecessary or extra-curricular things which only waste time and energy, their only real resources. They will quit chasing after better or nicer cars, jobs and homes, content with being bond-servants of the Creator of the universe. They will begin to truly love and serve one another, and to poke and prod each other along the road to love and good works. They will see the Lord working in and through whomever He chooses, however He chooses, and not just through the (anointed) “leader”, and the leaders will love to see it. They will truly discover their gifting, not through taking some silly “spiritual-gifts” questionnaire (and then being assigned their “usher” or “greeter” job), but through practical, personal experience in the furnace of true biblical fellowship.
Sooner or later, they will start to be a force to be reckoned with in their community and society. They will do real evangelism that will cut people to the heart and bring them, on their knees, to the Lord. They will work healings and deliverances from demonic powers. They will attract others into their midst, and enemies. They will start being bugged and harassed by the kingdom of darkness. They will divide into other groups as they become too large for intimate fellowship. Perhaps they will start sending people from their midst to continue this organic growth-process in other places.
It will not be led by a “head-pastor”, but by several elders whom God works through. They will lead by example which can be seen, not just spoken about, and everyone will have a place and function as the Spirit bestows His gifts. The leaders will not be paid. It will not depend on rear-ends filling the pews and “payin’ their tithes”, because it will be God-directed and driven, not driven by the need for money and job-security.
It will be intense, hectic and even scary; many joys and many perils and sorrows. It’s a go-for-broke, all-or-nothing, high-risk endeavor, not for the faint of heart. If you want or need to protect your status, privacy or ego; you’ll have to stay at home.
This is God’s way, not man’s. Always has been and always will be. Any volunteers?
If you are willing to proceed looking into these issues and problems within the Churches, please go now to the WRITINGS page. Be blessed on your journey.





Gosh! that’s a big call. I just don’t know if we are ready to tear the existing structure down. I’ve often had the thought that perhaps God had that idea first, but never confident enough to build on it.
Man, the stuff you’re saying is so true, we have become powerless, we are half hearted, lukewarm…it’s all true.
We pray for drunks, drug abusers, for the demonised, NOTHING! absolutely Zilcho…..
Don’t know if I’ve got the balls to tell my pastor that God wants to radically change his comfy church.
Think I’m gonna have to pray seriously about this one.
Quite frankly I think it might be easier if the Lord raises an enemy against us and just comes in and lays the land waste. Then out of the rubble we could start again.
Gonna give you my honest response. Hope it doesn’t come off as hard or critical. Lord knows how long it’s taken ME to get where I am.
The ONLY times I’ve experienced real life and power in the Lord is when I was overseas, completely out of any institutional church structure.
Don’t worry about havin to tell your pastor that God wants to radically change HIS comfy church. What you may want to consider instead is just sharing truth with as many who will listen, and then hopefully begin walkin it out with any who will go along, in fear and trembling.
I’m convinced that any people who will fully consecrate themselves to the Lord, and learn to rest in and walk in Him, WILL, indeed, find “the real thing”.
Hi brother
I have just read your 2 articles and am so excited by what you have written.
God took me out of the institutional church 2 years ago. He had me speak to the elders of the church, which was terrifying on the surface, but I knew inside it was what He wanted me to do. I spoke what He wanted me to say, most rejected and then He took me out. I have no wish to go to another one, unless He specifically leads me there.
I have come to the conclusion that most people don’t want God on His terms.
I have a couple of brothers and sisters I meet with and we are all in the same ‘boat’. His sovereignity in our lives is everything and our lives are being moved around as He wants and it is incredible how He does it.
I don’t live in the USA, I live in South Africa and if it were not for my relationship with the Lord, I would be afraid to move around at times. Life can be very brutal here. He is our every hope, our every breath and our very life.
Bless you for your minstry and I will come and visit you again. I got to you through Chrystal’s Slaughter of the Sheep.
In Jesus.
Jessie,
You’re right. Most people DON’T want God on HIS terms. It’s always been this way.
I visited your site and I like what I see there, but there may be a little too much going on there. Just a friendly observation; take it for whatever you think it’s worth.
I’ve also added a link to your site.
Good to hear about your “real” fellowship. I’m sure the Lord has plans and purposes for you.
I’m hoping I can become part of a network of people really seeking to know, serve and follow Him.
If you’re willing to link to Endtime Disciples, and/or spread the word at all about what I’m trying to bring out into the open, I’d appreciate it.
Be blessed in your walk.
I just want to say thanks for your honesty. I agree with what you are saying here, in the short time that I have had on this planet, and the even shorter time that I have had being a follower of Christ these questions, and observations have struck me as well. To be honest I think that a generation of change is coming within the church as young believers try and discover what it really means to follow Christ.
I actually found your site while searching the definition of disciple, got a little more then expected.
God bless.
Chris my man (girl?), I truly hope and pray your statement is prophetic, and that the Lord does, indeed raise up young disciples to know Him, walk with Him and serve His agenda. Let me know if there’s ANYTHING I can do to be of help at any time.
I also encourage you to read through the other pages on this site, as well as other sites that are proclaiming similar or complimentary messages.
Grace in your journey.
Thanks alot for the teachings you are making
God bless you
Everything you have said is true. I am one who truly believes in worshipping God the way Jesus exemplified and the way the church in Acts and the apostles operated. I am tired of the fanfare and changing the sacredness of serving God into the hip hop and pleasing way for young people and some older folks of this generation to accept Christ. If the gospel as it was in Christ day up to the days of the 40’s and 6o’s was able to save the sinner, why cant the Holy spirit do its work in this generation.God’s way of saving and drawing souls is the same as it was then.The method of salvation does not change. Jesus died for our sins. You either believe it and accept it or you don’t There is too much hyping up people to accept christ, too much commercialism, control and self-seeking for numbers and more money in the church today. What we need is just what you said, more power to accomplish the work of Christ Ministry which He commanded us to continue. In doing that, we must live a righteous life. Jesus said we would do greater things than when He was here, but the church seem to ignore this. The church is exploiting God’s people for gain and not pointing them to Christ. While the people in the churchare suffering and getting poorer and poorer, the leaders are getting richer and richer. Church members are deceived by their leaders because they follow them as representatives of Christ, and there are a few that genuine, but it behooves us, like the Bereans to search the scriptures through the leading of the holy spirit and prove whether what the church is doing today is biblical. God is calling His true worshippers to stand up and stand out so that the true message of salvation be given to the world. I am one who have decided to follow God’s way and every word that proceeds out of His mouth . May God continue to bless you as you stand out for the truth.
Hello Brother how does one become a volunteer?
There is a new move of God out here in my home country,Nigeria and it is termed ENDTIME MOVE of God (Holy Ghost School)the focus is to get real initmate with God and not religion or tradition. You spend 1hr everyday with God studying his word and disciplceship books.Its trully awesome.I thought this endtime message was extinct and that there wasnt anyone else in the world focused on this. I just stumbled on your website and it just reminded me when elijah taught he was the only righteous one in the land and God told him that there were 700 men whom He had reserved who hadnt bowed to baal.
My greastest concern now is to find fellow disciples who are sold out and ready for the end time ministry and fellowship with each other.
I really want to be a part of this move,
Remain blessed,
Winnie.
“My sheep know my voice.” Thank you for hearing the voice of God and being willing to share with those ready to hear and do.
I can challenge none of what you have written. It has challenged me to pursue God’s call on my hand, realizing I am not alone and He has called others to do the same.
Yes, the only time I too have seen miracles and divine appointments has been when I operated outside of the confines of the established church. I am a preacher’s kid, a bishop’s daughter from the Caribbean. I know church but never knew God until I pursued Him with all of my heart.
Still very much in the school of the Spirit and loving every lesson. Yes, it calls for sacrifice but the rewards of His passion and love for me is unwavering and never ending.
Supernatural provision and protection comes as a result of unwavering obedience and trust in the Most High. God bless you. (Thanks for visiting my site.)
trulycaribbeanwoman,
I am very challenged and encouraged by your passion to know Him and by your insights.
Keep on, sister, in the school of the Spirit, and stay in touch. Also, if there’s anything I can ever do to help, let me know. I’ve been working, on this blog, to try and get beyond casual, surfacy relationships.
Hi Gene Aptaker,
I was sent the link to your blog by trulycaribbeanwoman who is a very dear mentor and now one one my closest spiritual friends and confidantes. The strong and bold views that you express are many that I share, wanting to do God’s will and precisely just that not just pray Our Father but walk the Our Father.
I encourage you in your walk of faith as I can identify with much of what you say.
I truly started “experiencing” God when I was willing to submit all I knew and believed to him for him to confirm. I cried out and he answered.
What came to me started with Divine visitation, with instruction and answers to many seemingly complex questions that all of us ask today, which still amazes me today. Going to God in earnest opened up a flood gate of revelation and divine wisdom that is waaay beyond my 21 years.
God worked with me and matured me in my faith in an amazingly short 1 year period. From dropping to sleep in church to being guided in every area of my life through God’s clear spontaneous voice and dreams and visions…to even getting previews of the points of the Pastors sermon on my heart while preparing to go to Church.
I realized that God does want to truly have intimate personal relationship with us. I been having to deal with not getting to be too familiar with God so when you touched on it it struck a cord in my heart. God is serious about his Kingdom work and wants us to be as well. Yet still it is his Holy Spirit that flows through us and draws people…so in essence we are vessells and yet still vessells with choice. Yet still he invites us to be in friend and walk in close unity with him…So I have been asking him to show me how to revere him yet not be drop dead scared of him every second that I pray with only trembling lips.
I could turn this blog comment into a full fledged Blog…with all I believe that God has shown me..but I won’t.
I’ll just say that as I asked God today how do we discern truth…cause I have also read the most horrible mess on the internet proclaimed in Jesus name.
All the idealogies and theologies and religions and every ism and schism today are like one big cake and the Holy Spirit is the razor sharp knife that cuts through that cake and exposes aallll the layers for what they are. So God is truly not mocked.
So as I read your blog post I was again reassured that I and those i know in my inner circle are not the only people on fire for God in the world and that even when we refuse as believers to witness…GOD HIMSELF divinely visits those who seek to go deeper in him as he did with Cornelious in Acts.
God’s WILL will be done…his plan the Great mystery revealed in Ephesians one will be accomplished…its our choice to be apart of it…So stay encouraged and stay strong in the Lord and follow his leading in your life…
Justin
Justin,
So good to hear from you. I have a son named Justin who will be 25 in December.
You make some very good and valid points.
Visit here and comment as much as you’d like, or we can communicate by email.
God is raising up an end-time people. I believe this.
Keep walking with Him in humility, and like you said, don’t get too familiar with Him.
You are right it is a season that we are in..and we have to ask the spirit to give us spiritual discernment to interpret scripture correctly see the times we are in. Wars famines, disasters…they don’t surprise God and they shouldn’t surprise us.
Also admittedly we are all at our own place with God and he deals with us gradually at our level. you can choose to stay a baby or you can grow at mind boggling pace…its how willing you are to yeild to the Holy Spirit.
Keeping these two things in mind I have been better able to understand what the Holy Spirit is doing in my life and in the Church as a whole…and See the synergistic balance that is needed between organisation and structure and bona fide spiritual guidance.
What may seem organized to to us may be unorganized to God and what seems unorganized to God seems organised to us.
Leave nothing to “common sense” and intellectual reasoning..always seek the deeper layer Revelation.
And then when you step into diving flow with God you see the progress he wants to make in you life.
Justin
The Bible warned us that it would happen. If your interested in Bible passages that talk about this subject, you can find them here:
http://www.last.fm/group/Jesus+rocks%21/forum/31325/_/305377/_/6821107
As I read the Bible, and encounter other passages, I’m still adding them.
Gene, your following words make me think a dictator.
“If I have not already lost you, and you did not have a very negative inward response to those statements; read on. If you did have that negative reaction, and believe I am wrong in my assessment, there is probably no point at all in reading any further.
I will not use a lot of scripture quotations to back up my views in this writing. The truth of what I say should be apparent to any believer who has a reasonable understanding of the Word”
Your post basically says, “I have the total ultimate truth and if you disagree with me, go away, you are wrong”
There is one description that comes to mind “complete and total arrogance and disception!”
Sorry, my friend, all the members of this site, including you, declare your hatred for apostacy and false teaching, and you have just crossed that line. Noone BUT God can make the claim to absolute total knowledge and truth.
Ralph,
It’s interesting that, out of all the things shared and said in this paper, you zeroed in on two statements which you believe prove I think I have total, absolute truth. You’re quite a lawyer.
If you want to believe, as you said in another comment, that God wants His children “rich in goods”, despite the strong WARNINGS in the Word against such thinking, you certainly won’t hear ME.
If you want to receive people like Benny Hinn, a PROVEN false prophet who lives like a King off worshipers like you and countless others, then what can I say?
I agree with the problems that are stated in this paper; nevertheless, I do not agree with the blanket statements of (Pentecostals/Charismatic/House churches). I believe that there are some that are calling people to the same kind of life that this paper is calling people to. In addition, I agree with Ralph, (although I would not call you totally arrogant) and the reason he probably zeroed in on that point of your paper is because the rest of your paper was birthed out of that thought.
Although I agree with the things you all are assuming, you can’t make general statements about any group of people or denomination. I think many times we argue and disagree with the disputable matters (Romans 14).
Is this web blog a response to American Protestantism? Just like American Protestantism was a response to the Church of England? Just like the Church of England was a response to Catholicism? Just like Catholicism was a response to Judeo/Christian relations? In a few months, you will have someone respond to this blog, name the problems in it and start a NEW group that is trying to make “REAL” relationship. I really think we are all trying to do the same thing, we just dispute about how it should be done. I think Paul would write a letter to the church of the internet and say we have it all wrong. Before we begin to make negative claims about another body of believers and want them to change, let’s see the problems within ourselves and make that change. From the outside looking in, this group is similar to a denomination. Everyone things the same, everyone agrees on who the “enemy” is, if you receive “opposition” then you are doing the will of God. Well isn’t this group “opposing” American Protestantism? Who says they are not doing the “will of God” because you are opposing them, they have the right to think that as well. I’m sure in their meeting they would say the same things that this group says.
I will hear you Gene, but just like I will listen your critiques’, I would like you to listen to mine. I will admit that there are problems in American Protestantism and the institutional church; however, there are some great things the institutional church does as well. Some of their “programs” help feed the poor, cloth the naked. Some do have “real” fellowship. If you are looking for a church or a group with no problems you won’t find it because people are problematic. I’m sure if this group met face to face it would look differently than it does over the web. Because over the web you just have thoughts flowing and you really do not have to interact with people. Think about what you are doing and please do not inadvertently start a “new” nameless denomination under the guise of a “movement”. Because that is what it will become.
Jay,
You make some good points. I especially like, “I think Paul would write a letter to the church of the internet and say we have it all wrong. Before we begin to make negative claims about another body of believers and want them to change, let’s see the problems within ourselves and make that change.”
I truly wrestle with this, and I certainly don’t see myself, or others on this blog, as even close to having it all together, but it goes beyond wanting others to change. It’s wanting, hoping and praying that people will begin to see that organized “Church”, regardless of the variety, just doesn’t fit God’s model and purposes, and never has. More and more people ARE seeing this.
The formation of organized church marked an ending of God’s “real thing” and the beginning of a counterfeit. Apart from some definite exceptions to the rule, it’s been that way ever since. I know that sounds very dogmatic, but it’s my honest view of things.
I’m not here as some guru or Messiah. I only want this place to be ONE focal point where people who are realizing just how off-target church is can come and share, encourage and provoke one another. I have no desire at all to strive and contend with anyone who feels that church is where it’s at.
I have experienced “the real thing” in different ways and forms, with anywhere between one and ten other people. I have never tasted of it within institutional or house church.
I’m not saying I can’t have fellowship with believers who are in organized church, but the chance of that, I have found, is fairly remote.
Thanks for your thoughtful contribution.